Ep. 1- Nebuchadnezzar, Machu Picchu, Plato, Locke, and Aliens?

Intro

J: Welcome to Bare Consciousness: theoretical answers to questions you never cared about. I’m Jacob

S: And, I’m Steve.

J: And this is our first episode, so here’s a little about who we are. Basically, we have a question that has no answer or has not been answered and one of us has done an innumerous amount of research about it, and they will present a little bit about the topic. Then we will have minutes of discussion that you probably won’t care to listen to anyway.

S: Hopefully we’ll make some sense out of stuff that’s pretty nonsensical and hopefully we’ll make some nonsense out of something you thought was pretty mundane.

J: So, with that being said, welcome to Bare Consciousness!

J: Alright, so, before we get started here, on our questions of the day. We’ll just do a little bit about ourselves. So, my name’s Jacob. I’m a freshman in college and am currently a Religious Studies major. But, I’m interested in all sorts of things around. I will probably end up double majoring just because I easily get bored.

S: My name is Stephen, actually, but they just call me Steve. I’m a Bio major, on the the opposite side of the spectrum as Jacob, and I’m also concentrating in conservation and ecological biology as well as minoring in journalism. So, I’m trying to go for that Nat Geo vibe, you know what I’m talking about? That Smithsonian, that research, that, in the George Mason, Fairfax, Washington DC area; trying to get those good jobs, opportunities, stuff like that. So we’re both on the opposite sides of the spectrum and the best part about that is, you know, we’ll bring different things to the table, whether that be good or bad, but we’ll just see how that goes.

J: Together, we noticed we had a weird common interest in theoretical physics for no apparent reason. And with that interest in mind, this podcast was born.

Part 1: Steve

J: Steve, would you like to take the first question of the day?

S: I would absolutely love to take the first question! So, I was looking into theoretical history, so we’re kind of swapping what we’re interested in. Jacob actually went for a more scientific question, I went for something more historical. It probably wasn’t a smart move, I’ll probably get kicked out of the history section of this podcast very quickly for what I’m about to say. But we’ll go with it at the same time. I was looking into Machu Picchu and how it had its origins in Incan society, and things like that. But, at the same time, and this is where the theoretical portion comes in, I was wondering if the Hanging Gardens of Babylon were real. You start to wonder, ‘what is this guy saying, what connects these two things,’ however, I posit that Machu Pichu and the Hanging Gardens of Babylon are the same thing.

J: Please go on, I am intrigued. Yet, I would like to ask before you continue; you are aware that Babylon and Machu Picchu are in two different geographic locations, correct?

S: I am, and I also know that Machu Picchu was originally built in 1450 AD while the Babylon Empire only lasted from 626 - 539 BCE. So not only are they in varying geographic locations but they are also in varying time periods.

J: With that clarified, my interest has been piqued. Please continue.

S: So, I believe that there was mass flooding in the Babylonian / Mesopotamian societies around the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. And, though there economy was based off of this flooding and silt seeped into their fields so that they could grow greater crops and have more of an economic export, I also believe that maybe one year, two years, with just how weather flows within that portion of the world, there was unexpected flooding. Basically, what I’m thinking, is that these people were pushed out of their homelands. If you look at China, the Han Dynasty and the Tang Dynasty were both economically destroyed because the Yellow River flooded. So, I though that the people in the Babylonian society moved over west towards Africa, they picked up boats from Egypt, and sailed across. This is because there was no other geographic range which could suit their empire. There have been studies, one of which was conducted by Thor Heyerdahl, and he actually took a crew and sailed a craft modeled after an Ancient Egyptian boat through the Atlantic and he sailed 4,000 miles in 57 days, making it from point A to point B; starting in Morocco and ending in South America.

J: Where in South America did they go, because Chile is on the far side of South America from Africa. So, theoretically to do that, at that time, you’d have to go around the cape and come up on the side of Chile. Unless, they would have landed on the Argentina side and walked across? That’s what I’m trying to get at, you know what I’m saying?

S: So, he left from Morocco, as said, but he also landed in the Caribbean. However, it has been proven, by Hernan Cortez and other conquistadors, that you can walk inwards with a substantial troop of individuals, whether that be an army or, in this case, a cultural community. So, getting there might have been a circumstance that wasn’t pleasant, but it was doable.

J: That would be fair. So the next question becomes: if the Hanging Gardens and Machu Picchu are similar, are you suggesting that Machu Picchu was built by the Babylonians or are you suggesting that it was built on the site of the Babylonian Hanging Gardens?

S: I am suggesting that the Incans made vast improvements to Machu Picchu, or the Hanging Gardens at the time, and created what is there today. I say that because, if the Babylonians were pushed out, it is actually historically understood that the Hanging Gardens were built by King Nebuchadnezzar II because his wife was homesick and the plants that were grown there were reminiscent of her homeland. So, whether that was from the Babylonian society, bringing seeds with them, that could be a possibility. But also, what I have been finding is that Babylonian society used mud mortar. That contacts over a long period of time. So, if they were to build a Hanging Garden of Babylon, then the mud mortar could have contracted and that could contribute to the reason why Machu Picchu is renowned for being built without any mortar. So it wouldn’t actually be a seen mortar, just because it would contract so much and almost disappear because of environmental decay. And so I believe that the Incas found this temple, or palace, or whatever you want to call it (whatever it was we don’t know, and I don’t think we’ll ever know). At the same time, I do believe that found that and they started adding onto that and they started contributing to this structure to build it up.

J: The one contention I have: Nebuchadnezzar was featured in The Bible a couple of times, as a religious studies major I can say that I’m well versed in this. And, famously through history, he led armies against the Assyrian and Egyptians, which would be exceedingly difficult from the coasts of Chile, or the mountains of Chile really. And the other thing is, there’s a lot of things in history that take place with Nebuchadnezzar in the Middle East, including some King of Judah, I believe Zedekiah, trying to lead an army against him, which means the Judaiyan would have also moved to South America. As well as him dying in his Babylon, which is written to be on the River Euphrates in the typical Fertile Crescent as described in ancient history.

S: On the coast of Peru, on the west coast, there is a trident made of rock. It is perfectly crafted, and it is facing in the exact direction of Egypt.

J: Your point is?

S: What I’m saying is that there was a way back. And, if they were pushed out, and they had to leave, they might have only been gone for ten years. If you could make the journey in 57 days, build your society (the ruins of Machu Picchu as it is today could have been built in a year or could have been built in 4 weeks. We don’t know how much was built up before the Incan arrival), and when he believed that his culture and his people would have been safe going back, then Nebuchadnezzar II could have returned to Egypt, laying this trident on the Peruvian coast to guide them back to the East coast and then back to Egypt.

J: I’m not going to say that that’s not possible, because as you’ve shown with the guy who built the boat and did it in 57 days, it is possible. But, thinking in terms of ancient navigational systems, I have to say that the likelihood of them returning back to somewhere where they know where in the hell they are seems unlikely.

S: Well, there could always be the potential of aliens.

J: Oh, God. Go on. What’s this alien talk?

S: Well, I mean, if you think about it, there’s also an airfield in Peru. And this is more getting into Neil Von Daniken, delving deeper into his research more than I am comfortable to with also saying that I am sane. However, I’m going to do it on behalf of my argument and for the pleasure of this podcast. Von Daniken did argue that aliens did come to the Earth, and are symbolically recognized in both Biblical literature as well as multiple frescos whether they be in the Middle East or in Central / South America. There is a large span of desert in Peru that consists of large drawings that can only be seen from about 5,000 feet above the ground. There are monkeys drawn, there are other animals drawn, and you start to wonder how the people who had created these drawings were actually able to see what they are drawing. And also, there are long strips of very narrow and very flattened land that could have been driven on by planes, cars, we don’t know. They look very similar to what a road would looks like today. So, this person, Von Daniken, posits on multiple accounts that we were visited throughout this period of historic human life. And, we have been seen to record the fact that aliens have been here. However, we do not recognize this in today’s society solely because we are based upon science and not religious and that we have deemed the religious studies aspect of extraterrestrial beings to be subpar and inadequate in comparison to our sciences and other ways of getting into space or orbit.

J: So, if I was to say, in conclusion on this topic, The Hanging Gardens of Babylon could have been located in Peru, possibly, either by Nebuchadnezzar or aliens? Or it’s possible that they were just in Babylon.

S: Hey, you never know.

J: I love it.

Part 2: Jacob

S: Alright Jacob, I just explained the radical views that I may, or may not, hold because of the research I may, or may not, have done. What is the question that you’re bringing to the table?

J: So, I’m kind of switching gears here. You went more for ancient history, and I went more for psychology things here. But, it does involve some history. I will say, as a little disclaimer, that the farther I got into this the more and more of a wormhole it became. So, there are some things that I’m just going to cut out because of time and because of how ridiculous it got. Basically, here’s the topic. If a human were to grow up in the wilderness with no human contact, how human would they be? You with me?

S: Absolutely.

J: So, basically what this is, is the old nature vs. nurture debate. So, let’s meet the teams before we really get started here. On the nature side, we have Plato and Descartes. They have a theory called Innatism which suggests that knowledge exists in all living beings, but it is experience which unlocks all the knowledge which you already have within yourself. On the nurture side of the debate is our old buddy John Locke (we love John Locke). He has this theory called Tabula Rasa which, from latin, roughly translates to “clean slate.” This is roughly stolen from Aristotles work; he was once roughly translated as writing about the “un-scribed tablet of the soul.” But, basically, the Tabula Rasa theory suggests that you are born a clean slate; you have no prior knowledge, and the only knowledge you can discover is throughout how you are brought up. The interesting thing is, modern science is a weird blend of it. It’s almost like you can find yourself on a spectrum of the nature vs. nurture debate and there’s no right answer, which makes these next couple of stories I found more ridiculous. A couple of other background things: scientists would like to say that emotions can be found throughout all living creatures. Animals will show care, they’ll show love, they’ll show empathy, they just do it in different ways than humans do. Sometimes it comes down to a debate of whether or not you exhibit the care and empathy of other humans or of animals. And that, sometimes, influences whether or not other people say that you’re human. Right? You with me?

S: Okay.”

J: Perfect. So this first story I found is called “Victor of Aveyron.” Aveyron, I’m probably not pronouncing that correctly, but it’s a town in France. Basically this Victor guy was born somewhere between 1788 and 1790, nobody’s really sure, and sometime between 1795 and 1797 he was just abandoned in the woods, like in the wilderness.

S: Good, that’s good parenting.

J: Spectacular. That’s a solid call to Social Services nowadays. In 1798, he was captured for a day and then he got away, but people were like ‘what is this kid?’ In 1799 he was captured for an entire week before he got away. And it took them until January 9th of 1800 to capture Victor for good. This whole town was trying to find this kid. Basically, they catch him and they put him in the town jail of Aveyron, France and then in August of 1800 he’s sent to Paris to the Institute for Deafs and Mutes, which is their early day’s asylum. After doctors, psychologists, and all sorts of experts of deaf/mute people analyzed him, basically their conclusion was that he exhibits human characteristics but he lacks all of the communication skills which humans learn through their parents. They attempted to get him up to speed and, what they called, civilize him because it was all about being civil in France in the 1800’s. But they couldn’t get him to understand French or really and communication in a human level. Modern day scientists will often say that’s because he’s old enough that a lot of the learning pathways have closed off and it would be harder for him to learn. In France in the 1800’s they just say that he’s retarded and let him be until he died later in the 1800’s.

S: Oh, goodness.

J: Yeah, they were really nice to him.

S: No political correctness of those French… Of the 1800’s of course.

J: Of course. We have no problem with modern day French people. That brings us to the second story I found. Which is the story of a German boy named Kasper Hauser. Basically, all the research I did, all the places I went, somebody mentioned something about Kasper Hauser which is interesting because nobody is sure whether or not he was brought up in a wild setting or normally but was just really stupid. Nobody knows, which makes this story all the more interesting. He just shows up on the 26th of May, 1828 in Nuremberg, Germany. He just shows up at the police and was like ‘hey by the way—,’ oh he doesn’t say this because he can’t speak, but he’s like ‘I want to be legionnaire like my father,’ and he can say the word ‘horse.’ He’s holding two handwritten letters, both in the same handwriting, both from different people. One of the letters says ‘oh by the way, he’s been brought up in a cell all his life because such and such. He was abandoned by his parents, blah, blah, blah. You can let him into the police force or hang him, the choice is up to you.’ And then the second letter is from his mother saying something of the effect of ‘his father used to be in such and such a regiment and he wants to be like his father.’ They just decided that they were going to lock him up until they could figure out what was happening because they had no idea. They couldn’t find either of the people who the letters said they were from. He couldn’t speak for himself so there were a bunch of people who were attempting to speak to him. When they finally got him to converse a little bit and write a little bit more, he was finally able to tell them that he said that he, for his whole life, he was brought up in a cell which was roughly two meters by one meter. He would just be in bed, he would wake up, and there would be bread and water next to his bed. Sometimes, he said, that the water would taste bitter. He would wake up and the straw on his bed would be changed and his nails and hair would be cut. He said that every once in a while he would actually see a real human, who would always obscure their face, who taught him to write his name and walk by just grabbing his arms and legs and showing him how to do it.

S: So, I guess to rebut this, and the two stories, and maybe put another perspective on the scale between nature and nurture, I was actually listening to a podcast recently. They’re apparently doing trials on mice, currently, of MDMA injections. They’ll inject mice with this and a critical point will open up. So, a critical point, for those who are listening to don’t know what that is, is…

J: Good, because I didn’t know what that was.

S: So when you’re born, you have a period of time where you’re more likely to be able to learn a language. And the reason why, if you’re coming from an English or an American society, you’ve probably grown up learning the English language and it’s easy for you, and when you get to high school or you get to college and you start learning more languages, they’re more difficult, is because it’s more of a chemical reaction in your brain. This is because there is a critical point. This is a gap of years where you’re more malleable. Your brain is more moldable. It can form these connections to learn languages or understand sciences or things like that. So I started hyping this up, and I started making the joke that, to get through my chemistry course, I should be able to inject myself with this so that I’ll understand it. I was talking about it with my roommate and I realized that MDMA is Molly, the drug. That took a lot of wind out of my sails but, at the same time, it’s a lot of nature in the later portion of life and a lot of nurture within the malleable years. And this seems to coincide with most of the stories because these are people who have been left for dead in the beginning of their lives and have, thus, suffered natural consequences from that. Now, what is your perspective coming back?

J: Well, I think it’s very interesting that you said it’s more nurture in the beginning of life while nature kind of takes the end of your life. There are a lot of people who suggest that humans acquire through imitation, which I kind of agree on. They say that language, activity, way of thinking, and feeling are things that you learn through imitation based on your surrounding while you are being brought up, which is more nurture. They then suggest, almost like it’s a video game, that you evolve these four things (the language, activity, way of thinking, and feeling), through your learning of the environment, or interactions, which would be more nature. You learn through interactions how to evolve the things that you learned through nurture. Now, that suggests that the beginning of your life is entirely nurture and the end is entirely nature, which I think, to an extent, is true. But also, there are some things which I feel are hard-wired for. Humans have very distinct mental processes which distinguish them from lots of other creatures one Earth, which makes us disposed to learn via imitation. This is, I think, why we can end up with some of these people who end up in the wilderness and end up acting completely different from the rest of humanity. They are more predisposed to act like the things that they are around. So, in the classic ‘Brought up by Wolves’ story, they’re predisposed to being brought up by wolves.

S: That does make sense. So, what I’m getting, is that this week we have learned that there might have been a great deal of geological travel before 1492 when we thought it began.

J: Or geographical if you’re a scientist. And that nature vs. nurture is as much a spectrum as sound or light. You can pick.

S: So these are just questions that could go forwards and hopefully we’ve shed a little bit of light from our perspective and our research. We did introduce the topics of possibilities that aliens may exists and to get through any college course you just need to inject yourself with Molly. But at the same time, hopefully we’ve brought an intellectual perspective to common issues to things which you may have never thought about or things you’ve never wanted to think about.

J: A couple of disclaimers before we end: Please don’t inject yourself with Molly to pass a college course, we don’t condone that whatsoever. The other thing we do condone is listening to listening to this podcast. So thank you for doing so. And, if you made it to the end, treat yourself to a nice, fresh glass of ice water on us.

S: Thank you, and we’ll see you the next time we see you.